February 21, 2004
How Do You Feel About Gay Marriage Today?
Josh Marshall writes about gay marriage, and expands on his points after he gets quite a few responses.I first have to point out one tearjerking email he got from a James in Vallejo, CA:
I just want you to know that my partner and I were married at city hall on Thursday this week. We waiting in line for about 9 hours and were prepared to camp out on the side walk overnight if we had to. In line behind us were two women who had driven 27 hours from El Paso with their son in tow. Just in front of us were two women who had flown in from Virginia and two men who'd flown in from Kansas City. There were also lots of Bay Area couples there. There were couples with babies in strollers and one couple with an aged mother in a wheelchair and hooked up to oxygen.This is not the right time. There is no right time. There is just the right thing to do. This was the right thing to do.
The Republicans and the far right are going to us as scapegoats no matter what we do. We all know that. We have always known that.
Now they know a little more about us.
Here's what struck me today while reading about all this. Josh is writing a different sort of entry here - he's not making an argument or trying to convince anyone of his point of view. Instead, he's sharing his points of view on the matter at a particular time, while knowing that things are shifting enough that his opinions might change very soon. He, like many others, have held on to the protective ambiguity of "civil unions, not marriage", while acknowledging that the demonstrations of real love may be exposing that opinion for the rationalization it is.
I think Josh is courageous in writing this because I think he knows what may be coming. I recently re-read my war position and, while I still believe that what I wrote is insightful and has lots of important points, I'm struck by how much I was laboring to make them. It was an incredible headwind being blown by the Bush administration at that time, and those sorts of headwinds affect all of us. Writing about opposing the Iraq war is a lot easier today, because it's safe.
We're right in the middle of a transformation where it's a little bit easier for Joe Average to see gay marriage as "safe", and for those that feel the headwinds more than others, I think they'll look back at this time later on and be amazed at how much difficulty they had reconciling their opinions. I'm looking forward to Josh revisiting his feelings in a year.
Posted by Curt at February 21, 2004 10:47 PM
It's about time.
Love the idea of gay marriage. Seeing the wedding scenes in SF have made me so proud to be a (former) Californian and Bay Area resident.
Call it what you will, this is about equality, nothing more.
Homosexual marriage is an issue of recognition, not an issue of equal rights (like so many have claimed, like comparing their struggle to the one of the blacks in the 60's). Anyone who does not approve of the "marriage" of homosexuals, is branded a "bigot", regardless of a persons religious teachings. So much for the bigotry of those with different religious views.
Posted by: John Brenner at April 11, 2004 02:54 AMI didn't know anyone else had the guts to say that, John. Especially since it's not "politically Correct". Is political correctness going to be the deciding factor on right and wrong?
Posted by: Rachel at April 11, 2004 02:58 AMSomething tells me you two know each other. That's a bizarre understanding of "politically correct". Anyway, John's free to not personally recognize homosexual marriage, free to not approve of it, etc - but if he disapproves, his disapproval doesn't mean there should be a lawful restriction against it.
Homosexuals are not equally moral to heterosexuals
1. Sexual Attitudes and Lifestyles found in 1994 that over 70% of men believe sex between two men to be always or mostly wrong. Interestingly, younger respondents were "not markedly more tolerant than older ones". This figure is mirrored by many opinion polls.
2. People do not hate homosexuals, they just believe that what they do is wrong.
3. The historic Christian faith has always affirmed Biblical teaching that homosexual acts are always wrong. Homosexual temptation is not sinful. Yielding to it is. Homosexual practice, like adultery and other sexual sins, can be forgiven provided there is faith and repentance.
4. Marriage is the only context where the bible endorses sexual activity :
a. "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh" Genesis 2 : 24. This passage was also quoted by Jesus Christ in Mark 10:
6-8 and Matthew 19 : 4 - 5
b. Both the new testament and the old testament view adultery, sex before marriage and homosexual sexual activity as morally wrong. (see for example 1 Corinthians 6: 9)
5. The Lambeth conference re-stated that homosexual practice is incompatible with the Bible. While some liberal bishops from the UK and USA opposed Lambeth Resolution 1.10, the overwhelming majority of Bishops in the Anglican Communion agreed with its statement that:
a. Homosexual practice is incompatible with the Bible;
b. Christians can experience same-sex attraction and that the Church should seek sensitively to minister to such people;
c. For those not called to marriage sexual abstinence is the right course; and
d. Same-sex unions are to be rejected.
6. The Archbishop of Canterbury said after the debate at the Lambeth Conference "I see no room in scripture for any sexual activity outside matrimony for husband and wife. I believe this motion says what we have all held Anglican morality stands for."
7. All the world's main religions have consistently viewed homosexual practice as morally wrong. For Muslims, homosexual practice is explicitly forbidden in the Koran. Sikhs and Hindus strongly affirm friendship between men, but view homosexual practice as morally wrong.
8. In recent years there have been "modernisers", particularly amongst those claiming to be Christian or Jewish, who reject the historic teaching of their traditions. But from a world perspective they are very much a fringe minority.
Where does all this lead? Is the line of what's right and wrong drawn with a sharp fine line, or a gray one that is 50 feet wide? Does it move back and forth with the politcal winds?
Yes, Tunesmith. I have known John for several years. We talk to each other on occasion.
Posted by: Rachel at April 11, 2004 03:26 AMYou're all writing from the same computer. I thought it was curious that you both commented at the same time until I realized that. Anyway, I find biblical arguments against homosexuality tiresome. As if that's the end-all be-all for what's moral in the world. Although I find the history lesson interesting. It's a lot more tolerant than it was fifty years ago. I wonder what the attitudes of those same religions will be in another fifty years. Your view of the Bible is one of many. I feel no conflict at all between my tolerance of homosexuality and my religion. At any rate, religious arguments against homosexuality are irrelevant when talking about laws and amendments.
I love the idea of gay marriages. There's nothing wrong with people wanting to show their love by getting married. For anyone who is against it why??? Your life isnt being fractured or hurt in any sort of way and if you can't stand to see the sight of it close your eyes. I am not homosexual but I feel for those who are judged by what they want to be. We as citizens in this country have other things to worry about besides someones sexuality. In my opinion all those who judge others on what they want to be need to step off and take a good look at their life and make sure that their situation is in order before they start to go and judge other people.
This is me Ta'Niesha writing from New York City
Posted by: Ta'Niesha at July 13, 2004 09:07 AM"At any rate, religious arguments against homosexuality are irrelevant when talking about laws and amendments."
Bingo, Tunesmith. I feel queasy when reading such ludicrous religious zealot crap. These people have tunnel vision regarding life and their version of the Bible, countering their views is like arguing with children. They're in their own little world...
Not that it is in any way relevant in this issue, but I like to point out that the Bible was written by MEN, and interpreted by MEN...not "God," men. Men with their own views about what is "right" and "wrong." Ya' think the men who wrote the Bible were so meticulous, disciplined and perfect that they set their own views aside not allowing them to sully up the Bible as they wrote it? Um, yeah, okay...
As a straight woman, I'd like to say this government can take their "marriage" and cram it. This marriage certificate/process has nothing to do with love, nothing to do with committment. It has everything to do with control.
Nevertheless, in line with all of their systems, they have made it such that it makes life much more difficult if we don't participate. They have a need to control us because their minds were also poisoned by an ill interpretation of the Bible, which created profound fear within them. When any entity has such an insatiable need for control, you can bet FEAR is at the root of it...not a sense of what is truly "right" and "wrong."
What the Bible has done best is to teach and engrain in us and our society FEAR, SHAME, HATRED and JUDGMENT. The Bible, when it's ill interpreted, teaches us to hate others and there is no way we can do that without also hating ourselves. Hence, the state of our world...the crumbling of our world...
*Note, yes you hate them, not just what they do. You feel above them, better than them and that you will be "saved" and they will be "eternally damned." Yes, you hate them...and yourself...because they are you...you hate your own "inadequacies," your own "sins." You hate yourself because you will never quite live up to those Biblical standards, those supposed Biblical directives warning you to "suppress" your precious humanness. Get over your own hatred for your own sexuality. Ironically, our sexuality is one of the best and most powerful aspects of us...
What we do with our bodies in the process of loving others should be OUR BUSINESS, not government business...and sure as hell not some Bible-pounding neighbor's business.
Those who are categorized as "gay" are simply people like everyone else, neither above nor below, neither better nor worse than any of us. We're all just people on a planet, we all SHOULD have an an unquestionable right to pursue happiness and live our lives as we choose with MINIMAL government intervention. Unfortunately, that's not the case because church is so infused in state, and that should be changed before our world is destroyed because of it. There are many different religions in this world, many that actually teach love, not hate and judgment. Sadly, it's the latter that is at the root of our laws.
I understand why "gays" (I really dislike that term because it almost seems to imply they're of some other species, subhuman or something) want the right to be married. It's partially because this society has brainwashed us all into thinking that "marriage" equates to love and committment. But for "gays" I believe it's mostly about being validated. It's an indication that FINALLY they're being recognized as being HUMAN BEINGS...human beings who are worthy, who have the right to love and be loved and to be happy... For "God" sakes, let them be and stop inflicting your misery and fear upon them...
Leah
Posted by: Leah at July 20, 2004 06:45 AM